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Transcript

 

Ruth Adewuya, MD, CHCP, MEHP Fellow: I would encourage everyone to believe in your worth and advocate from a place of confidence.

Andrea Zimmerman, EdD, CHCP: Hello and welcome back to the Alliance Podcast Continuing Conversations. I'm Andrea Zimmerman and I am the Senior Director for Accreditation and Compliance at HMP Global and also a member of the Alliance Almanac podcast task force. We are recording live from the Alliance 2025 Annual Conference in Orlando, Florida, the session. We're deep diving today, building momentum, charting a path to success for women in CE CPD careers. Focuses on empowering women in the CE CPD industry. Joining me are Mara Davis and Dr. Ruth Adewuya, who are respected leaders and panelists from today's session that shared in valuable strategies for overcoming challenges, advancing careers, and fostering professional growth in CE CPD. Mara and Ruth, welcome to the Alliance Podcast.

Maura Davis: Thank you so much for having us.

AZ: Yeah. Great to be here. Well, let's, let's dive into your session. This session. Shared practical advice and inspiration from accomplished women in our industry. What initially drew you to speak about this topic? 

MD: I want to, maybe it's helpful to start and talk about how we came to be and then that will sort of lead into the answer here, which is to really give credit to our colleague Punam Kaia, who, um, got us together last year to speak on this, a similar topic at the '24 conference. And her goal was she looked around at her own career and realized how many women. Had helped build her up and take her to the place she was. So she reached out to, um, pum, uh, works for a medical education company and reached out to three others of us who work in different areas and pulled us together to talk sort of, to see if there was any there, there, let's see what it is we wanted to talk about. So we spent some time talking and realized we shared so many challenges. And put together an abstract for last year and spoke. So that is a little bit of history and why we wanted to speak about it. We got great feedback after last year's session and it was really gratifying to hear. That other people wanted that same level of support. And in fact, this year coming out of the session, something someone said to us is, I'm sad that we need some of this support and uplifting, but I'm so glad to hear that others are experiencing it and it makes me feel less alone. So it's certainly that sense of, um, companionship and we're in this together as part of what drew me to this.

RA: Yeah, I agree with that. I think for me, I was drawn to this topic because of my own journey. Navigating in a field where women, although in CPD women are not the minority,  but women of color have historically been underrepresented in CME or in CME leadership. And it was really important to be,  when I was invited by Punam to join this panel, I think it was an opportunity to share practical advice, inspiration, just not highlighting the challenges.Also celebrating the incredible progress that we've made, and the example that you gave Maura about the feedback that we received today highlights how important these conversations are because they remind us that we're not alone in our experiences, and they provide. A platform for women to be able to learn from each other, build connections, and really collectively work towards a more inclusive and equitable space in CPD.

AZ: Yeah. Um, you've already touched on this a little bit, but could you continue to talk about why it's important to continue to have these conversations? 

RA: Yeah, like I said, I think that we are all in continuing education and our mantra is to be lifelong [00:04:00] learners. Mm-hmm. And so I think these conversations help us all to grow as a community in terms of better practices to support each other as women. Take leadership roles across the organizations that they're a part of. How do they build structures that are supportive of each other?

AZ: In the session, you highlighted strategies for recognizing and addressing challenges such as gender biases. Could you share a personal story where you successfully navigated such challenges and any specific advice on responding to microaggressions or advocating for yourself?

MD: Yeah, this is a great question and I think it's, it is all, you know, speaking personally, um, some of my examples are personal and I don't necessarily wanna share in a podcast. Of course, but I'll, I'll give a really very specific example and one that we talked about in today's session, which was years ago. I walked into, um, a room and there were a lot of our physician volunteers. I work at a medical specialty society. We had a, um, a room full of physician volunteers and. They sort of looked around and said, well, someone needs to take notes. And I, you know, the eager, oh, oh, I'll, I'll do it. And um, a female colleague who was senior to me said to me later, she said, it's great that you're willing to help out, but never be the first person to offer, because that becomes the default. They look to you as the 20-something female in the room to be the person to take the notes. And it's such a small thing. But I really have held onto that 'cause it's, although in that case we're talking about physically taking notes. It's really about so much more. Mm-hmm. About recognizing that there is no, I have no problem contributing being part. In fact, I really enjoy contributing to success, but it is also about doing it on my terms and not doing it because as a woman, it's what's expected of me. Or as, um, a, you know, maybe a young woman at some points in my career. Perhaps I'm a little past that at this point. But, um, as a young woman at the table, right, people looking to me to be the one to do something because of that, to get the coffee to, you know, grab the waters, whatever it may be, to the administrative task. So that's in a small example of a microaggression that I was on the receiving end of, but then also the really valuable advice that someone in the room gave me, which is, again, you know, it's not just about taking notes, but don't be the first one to always volunteer to take notes.

RA: For me, I don't think that I have a specific example that comes to mind, but there have certainly been. A lot of times early in my career, and frankly even now, when my contributions were either overlooked or attributed to someone else or someone who is male, or to whoever, and it was and is very frustrating, but I think in terms of how do you navigate it, I navigate it by leaning into my ecosystem.To the ecosystem of support that I have. I mentioned this in this session, that it's in this case that our ecosystems can either serve, can serve as both a shield or a megaphone, because when you are going through these challenging situations. You can lean into a trusted network, whether it's mentors, whether it's that colleague, like you mentioned, whether they're allies. That's when you lean into them, and that is really invaluable. So seeking out allies who could amplify my voice beyond. How this person might be looking at me because of my gender, would be really important. I think it's very crucial to build relationship with colleagues who can call out as well and counteract some of these gender biases and some of these microaggressions that can happen.

AZ: That, yeah. That's great. And that really leads into our next question, um, about networking and mentorship. And they're often cited as necessary for career advancement. But they can sometimes feel really na daunting to navigate. What impact have networking and mentorship had on your career, and could you share some practical tips also for our audience, for building and maintaining those professional relationships?

MD: Yeah. Networking and mentorship are such hot words, but we talked about this in the session today, how that looks different for everybody. And, um, some of our fellow panels shared a formal mentoring pathway, whether it be through the alliance or elsewhere. And I, I will say I, I've not had success in my career with a formal mentorship. I have sought mentors. Um, in, in many different ways, but on my own and not necessarily through a formal, um, a formal pathway, but the networking piece I think is so important. And I'll give you an example of where a very, um. Female specific example of networking I was at, um, years ago, the Alliance was doing regional, um, sessions with for medical specialty societies and I was attending one that was being held in Washington DC and another woman and I were both looking for a place to pump. We were both nursing mothers at the time and we were looking for a place to pump and we bonded over that because there was nowhere for us to go when we started chatting. And, um, those babies we were nursing are now both in middle school, so this was years ago. And that woman now works on my team. We stayed in contact over the years. We worked in different places. We, she went through several different things, but when I was looking to hire somebody, we had remained in contact all of those years, and I knew that she was a wonderful, um, a wonderful person to have on the team, and I'm, I'm really glad to have her on the team now. So it's an example again, of a really female specific way of networking, but not shy away from those moments. Mm-hmm. Where, um, I mean, that was a big vulnerability. We were looking for a place to pump breast milk. And there was nowhere for us to go. And so this really vulnerable moment became an opportunity to network with somebody who I then created a lifelong friendship and professional working relationship with.

AZ: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.

RA: Yeah, I agree. I think vulnerability is really key. As an introvert, I'll admit that networking in the traditional sense it's quite intimidating for me. And so. I mentioned this in the session that walking into a room, introducing myself, making small talk with people around me really feels far outside of my comfort zone. And to what you said, I think networking can look differently for different people and formal mentorship programs. I agree with that. As an introverted person, formal mentorship programs made sense for me because I could apply, I could then submit my application, get connected, and I could build genuine connections, on a one-on-one or one to two kind of basis, and really build deep, genuine relationships. One turning point for me is hosting Stanford Med Cast because it was an opportunity to expand what I was doing, which was work. But also meet different leaders, different clinicians, researchers. And it was in a way that felt really natural to me because I'm delivering continuing education. And so through this conversations I've expanded my professional and my personal network in that way. And so it really showed me that you don't have to force yourself. Into spaces where you don't feel comfortable, but instead you can create opportunities that work for you. And so be deliberate about seeking people that have those kinds of skills and experiences.

AZ: That's really great. And in the session, you also mentioned building a board, building a bench. Um, so how can women in CPD create a supportive network that fosters growth and opportunity?

MD: I think it hearkens back to what Ruth and I were just. Both. Just speaking about being willing to be vulnerable. Um, I think that, you know, I describe myself as an extroverted introvert. So I, I am willing to put myself out there, but it takes effort and I have to do it, and it's being vulnerable and being willing to do that. But I also think it's being gentle with yourself and accepting that what this looks like will be different at different times in your career. You know, you may be having family of your own, or you may be caring for aging parents, or you may be, um, taking new career opportunities and you may not have a lot of time to invest and reach out and mentor other people. Or you may be at a point in your career where you do have a lot of time. So I think. What a way to create a supportive network is to accept that you're going to give what you can give, and that may look different at different times, but it's also about not being afraid to reach out. I remember an alliance meeting years ago. I went to a session, I don't recall the topic of the session, but um, there was somebody who was speaking and they were very dynamic and they said, if, if, you know, I'd be happy to serve as they didn't use the word mentor, but if anybody wants to reach out. And I remember approaching this person afterward and I was so excited and they were, um, not very receptive to me coming to speak to them. And in the moment I was. Really like, oh gosh, I put myself out there and you know, now I'm so embarrassed. But I reflected on it just even later that evening and I thought, you know, you have no idea what's going on in somebody else. So, you know, while I was really enthused about this person had just talked about maybe they were disappointed in themselves or maybe they had gotten bad feedback from somebody, right? So I think it's about giving grace to yourself. It's about giving grace to others, and it's about understanding that any sort of network you build is going to ebb and flow over the course of your career. And that's, that's all gonna be okay.

RA: I agree with all of that. I think asking for advice is an easy way to walk up to someone, identifying an area that you need help with, that you need to grow, can open the door to some very meaningful relationships, that's one way to do that. It's really okay to not have all of the answers, and there's nothing wrong with. Seeking advice from people. You'll be surprised by where it takes you. Build your ecosystem in a way that feels authentic to you.

AZ: Yeah, that's really good. So you mentioned, you know, ebbing and flowing and maybe needing different things at different times of your life. Um, balancing work life commitments is also a common struggle, especially for women who often juggle multiple roles. What strategies or tools have you found most helpful in managing your professional responsibilities alongside your personal commitments and how can others implement these practices to achieve a healthier work life balance? But I hate that  phrase.

MD: I was gonna say. I do, I was gonna say that too. Work life balance is a myth. Balance. I mean, it is a myth. It's all work life balance is a myth. I [00:14:00] would love, if anybody has the answer to that, please call into this podcast and let us know. I, I, I will say this, I, um, think that. I, I've received a couple of good nuggets of advice over my career that have helped contribute to this. So, um, and I'll, I'll tell you the things that I do with people on my team, um, I may say something to them, like, my working hours do not necessitate your response time. So you might get an email. I'm, I have chronic insomnia. I'm not a great sleeper, and there are times where I wanna work at 4:00 a.m. because I'm awake and I feel like, you know what? I can get this thing off my plate. So, um. I have done various things. I've done timing of emails, et cetera, et cetera. But ultimately, I try not to use teams outside of work hours 'cause that can come up as a popup notification on someone's phone. I try to be considerate of my team's time, but I also verbalize my. My, I guess, expectations, which is that if you receive a note from me, you do not need to respond. I am working on the hours that work for me and have zero expectation that you should be responding to me, and so it's a way that as a manager, I've tried to flip it around and help set healthy boundaries for others. I, I truly have been blessed in my life. I've never had a direct manager. With what I would consider to be unrealistic expectations about my response time or my availability out of the office. Um, so I, I guess I've been fortunate in that. But true work life balance is a myth, I think. And I think accepting that and leaning into it is also part of what achieved success? There are times in my life I've been able to contribute more and work harder, and there's times that I've had to pull back. And my best advice I can give absolutely anybody on that is to just be open and honest about it with yourself and with whoever you're reporting to or working with. So a personal example, my daughter was having some health issues and my mom was having health issues at the same time. So I was pulled in multiple directions and I was able to say to my direct manager at the time. I can either take a leave of absence or, I mean, we were short staffed at the time, or I could continue to work, but I need you to understand that you'll get 60% of me and not a hundred percent of me, and I'm okay with either, but I wanna be clear about mm-hmm what I can do right now. And it was such a freeing conversation. And I also engaged in a really meaningful exchange with her around. What she valued, which aligned with my values, which is why I really enjoy working for her. But again, I think we're like work-life balance is a myth, and it's really about being honest with yourself and being honest with those around you.

AZ: Yeah, that's a really great demonstration of how you are mentoring those who are on your team as well for expectations that you have, and then also setting boundaries for yourself with your management.

RA: So, I really like what you said, but I think I have a little bit of a pushback to this idea cause I also get the emails of  I'm sending this response now. You don't have to respond now. I actually don't like that. I think that if you are going to send it outside of office hours, you can always send it later because if you have someone on the receiving side of it who's maybe struggling with imposter syndrome trying to achieve. It doesn't matter, they're gonna try and answer because this is your boss who's trying to get at you, and so it's 10:00 and they'll have anxiety and maybe can't sleep, and I need to respond to my boss. I think it boils down to knowing and having a relationship and having the conversation as you said with your team, because there are some people who do work at late at night, early in the morning and wouldn't mind getting that email because they're up as well. They might as well do their work, but there are some people who might, that might just add to their anxiety.

MD: That's fair.

RA: In terms of balancing, I agree with both of you. I think balancing work life don't like that statement. I think that we have to be comfortable setting boundaries. And saying no when we need to protect our time and energy. I think as women we have a harder time. Doing that because of just the nature of women being the carers and the ones who take on all this invisible load. And so we need to recognize our value and that part of that recognition of our value is saying no, setting boundaries and delegating what's needed. That's something that I have had to work on, in my own career as well.

AZ: Yeah.

MD: I'm glad you said this, and I take the feedback around, um, you know, not always responding outside of hours in terms of saying, no, this is a personal goal for me for 2025. And I, funny it's not, I, I think I do a better job of it at work than I do in my personal life, right? So I'm really terrible. Won't say I know my personal life and I've just found myself, it was in late December, I was completely overwhelmed. I had some work deadlines, I had personal stuff. I had holiday gifts and gifts that needed to be wrapped. You know, all of the things towards the end of the year that, that add up. And I had committed to a dinner party and I just was sitting at my desk and I could feel the anxiety rising to me. And I hadn't started my, the dish I had to bring. And, and I texted this group of people and I said, I'm so sorry. I need to bow out. And the, the, the really great piece of advice that I never use is, no is a complete sentence. Sense. Mm-hmm. But I, I don't actually practice that as, and I proceeded to explain all of these things I had, and the response I got was, we'll miss you, but we totally understand and, and I cannot tell you how much I better I felt. And then my mind was clear and I was able to focus on my work and then close my laptop and walk away from my desk and proceed through my evening feeling so much better because I said no. Mm-hmm. And so I really, I, that was a personal example. Um, I encourage others to try that in their work life too.

AZ: Yeah. That's, um, that brings something that's. It's not on here. Um, what would you say to women who maybe are more junior in their careers who are starting to be asked to do, you know, presentations or, or get other opportunities, but maybe they also need to say no, but are afraid that if they say no, then another opportunity is not gonna come along. And I think it's, it's, uh, it's a hard to balance, you know, saying no with career aspirations?

RA: It's a lie. There will always be another opportunity.

AZ: Mm-hmm.

RA: I think the work we do continues to evolve. You can showcase your expertise in different ways, and perhaps not on this project, maybe not this presentation, but if you continue to add value in the day to day work, it's gonna come right back around. And you catch it when you're ready. 

MD: I think that's a, a beautiful way to think about it. I think, um, for those of us who work in smaller organizations too, sometimes no might not be an option. Mm-hmm. Right? I, I, so I encourage, um, I encourage conversations that are like, no, because, and the, because may lead into a conversation, so just, you know, no, because I'm already working on something for Ruth and it is due tomorrow, and I really cannot do this thing, Andrea, because I've got this deadline with Ruth tomorrow. Oh, thank you. I, I completely understand. Definitely focus on this thing. I'll find somebody else or, oh, this can wait till next week and let me see. Maybe I can make some progress on it before you get there. Right? So there are gonna be times in a career, especially when you're in a smaller organization where no may not be. A complete [00:21:00] sentence, but it's about having, again, it's about, I really encourage open conversations because, um, there's a scrape book, radical Candor. I dunno if any of you have read it, but the phrase that they use in there is clear as, I mean yes, clear is kind.

AZ: That also sounds like Brene Brown.

MD: Yes. Clear is kind and it is, you know, I use it as a manager and giving feedback, but it's also in no. Because here's my concern. Um, you know, and, and if the answer is no, 'cause I don't wanna, well that's a whole different, that's a whole different conversation. But if it's no, because there was a really valid reason, or no, because I had a great conversation with a direct report who said no to something I asked her to do in a very respectful and um, communicative way. And it came out that the answer was no, because she thought she was gonna fail.

AZ: Hmm. Oh.

MD: Which allowed for a really meaningful conversation around the faith I had in her and the support I could give her, right. To help her not fail, but if, if she had just said no, or actually worse, if she had just said yes, and I had never had that insight, we wouldn't have [00:22:00] had the opportunity to have that really meaningful conversation. So, you know, clear is kind is how I try to manage staff, but it's also how you should manage your relationship with others.

AZ: Mm-hmm.

RA: I appreciate that comment that you made that. Depending on the organization that you're in, you might, you can't just maybe say no. And I will almost say maybe it's yes and yes, I'm interested and I want this opportunity. I want to provide value to my organization. Mm-hmm. But you know, or Yes, but, or yes. And, and also, do I need your support for X, Y, and Z? And I need you to help reprioritize what is on my plate right now.

AZ: Right, right.

RA: And so it will not come across as saying no to an opportunity. They're saying yes, but they're also surfacing issues, as you mentioned.

AZ: Yeah. I think that we all need to take some improv classes to get us to learn how to shift a little bit.

AZ: Okay. Advocating for oneself in the workplace is essential, yet it can be intimidating, particularly when it comes to salary negotiations and career advancement. Can you share experiences with advocating for yourself, including any successes or setbacks?

MD: So, I'll, I'll share an example that's, um, deeply personal one, and I shared it, at the '24 Alliance meeting. Um, and I'm gonna give the abbreviated version to protect some, uh, parties. I, um. I was on parental leave with my youngest child and my boss resigned. She started in her own nonprofit, which was wonderful. Um, and then so when I returned to work, there was a vacancy and I was not considered for the vacancy. It was largely because I had just come back from parental leave and I was still, I'm seen to be maybe a little junior, just settling with a third child, had lots going on. This isn't the right time for Maura, was the general gist of that. And I didn't push back or disagree 'cause I was overwhelmed and I was suffering from postpartum depression and [00:24:00] all these things that it really didn't feel like the right time in my life. So fast forward, what ended up happening? Is they, um, moved my department into somebody else, but I took on the work of my previous boss without any additional compensation or title change. And for a couple of years I did her work. And because while the department ownership moved to another person on the senior leadership team, the work did not. And, um, a couple of years I grew frustrated and I did two things that I'm gonna share with the listeners. 'cause I think these are the two things that I'd, I'd recommend. I talked to my then. The new boss about it, and again, I let several years pass before I did this, and she was genuinely surprised to hear I had not received additional compensation.

AZ: Oh.

MD: She was not part of those conversations and she did not know that if I had brought it up. Uh, 18 months, two years, whenever the exact amount of time was, I think she would have helped advocate for me. I just didn't do it because I was too timid to, it's hard. Talking about money is hard and I didn't do it. So lesson learned and I would share with others. The other thing I did is I started looking for another job and I was transparent with my organization about it because it wasn't a. Um, it wasn't a middle finger to them. It was really me being like, I want to be a vice president. I want to be on a leadership team, and there's not an opportunity for me to do that here, and so I'm not leaving because I'm unhappy. I'm leaving because I want to advance. And so I was very open with them about this is what I was doing. Um, and I moved into. Uh, final round interviews at another organization, and again, I cont I chose to be transparent with both my boss and my CEO that I was doing it. And in the course of that, I got a phone call from my CEO offering me a role. They had created a vice president role at our organization for me so that they didn't lose me. They wanted to retain my talent, and I would not have received that had I not chosen to be open Now. I recognize not everybody has a psychological safety that I had, that I have. I, I'm very fortunate not everybody has that opportunity in their organization to be that transparent. But I did. I identified that. I was clear. It was kind and in the end, and by the way, I did not actually get the other job. So, uh, big, big, wonderful that I received the promotion in my current role. And I've been a vice president on our leadership team now for several years. So, um, I learned really two big things there. Speak up because again, I really do believe my boss would've advocated for a financial increase, maybe not a title increase, but a financial increase. Um, and then be, be brave. And be willing to have conversations. I was brave. I interviewed for a new job after I had been in my current one for, I don't know, maybe 11 years at that point. I was comfortable, um, but I was brave and then I also was open and I spoke honestly and shared what was going on and it really made, it made an enormous difference and the progression of my career.

AZ: Yeah, it takes a lot to be brave to get out of your comfort zone too.

RA: Yeah, I agree. I would add to what you said to approach negotiations as a conversation and not a confrontation. So I think we psych ourselves up that when we're doing a salary negotiation, it's us versus them, but it's not, it's a conversation. You are demonstrating the value that you bring to the organization, to the second part of your question around framing your achievements. I think this is where it's important for you to know your value and document what you're doing. It is your responsibility as an employee to make sure that your manager and your leader knows exactly what you're doing. So find ways to do that. Is it in your one-on-one sessions? Is it during your performance review? Document it for yourself. And for them. Mm-hmm. Because it's a reminder to you that, um, wow. Look how far I've come, look at what I've done. And it's a reminder to them of the value that you bring to the organization. This is how I advanced the mission of the organization. And I think one of our, um, I think the feedback that we received today was one of  the participants from last year's session came up to us and said that they were in the middle of deciding whether they were going to go back to an old position because they were just new and see me, and she took away from. Our session last year to document all of her wins and to celebrate her wins. And she said, because she did that, she's like, yeah, I'm actually making a difference here in seeing me. I'm not gonna go back to what I was doing. Wow. And so that's just the power of you looking back at your own work. Talk less about documenting it and framing it in terms of your achievements to leadership. So I would encourage everyone to believe in your worth. And advocate from a place of confidence.

MD: And something we heard from a participant in the session this morning was, um, as a manager, thank you for doing that. Thank you for documenting. 'cause you make my life easier when I am putting you up for promotion, when I'm writing your annual review, when I'm asking for more money, when I'm requesting a spot bonus. So not only is it about helping you take inventory of your own success, but also you're really helping your manager. And I, I have one sort of chuckle story about, um, salary negotiation. When I took my job at the AGA, I was coming from a for-profit consulting firm, and I made a choice to change my lifestyle 'cause I wanted to start a family. So I knew that moving into the nonprofit world would mean a salary, and it was essentially starting over again. I did, I had no CME experience when I moved to the A GA. And so I, I interviewed and there was this wonderful woman at the time, she was close to retirement, so it was still called like personnel as opposed to hr, if that gives you a sense of, of what this woman, her name was Kathy and she was so lovely like a grandmother. That was sort of her role. Anyway, I interview, I. Um, I had, there was a salary. I don't recall what it was. I said, okay, that's fine. When they made me the job offer the salary was a, a couple thousand dollars higher, let's say three, $4,000 higher. And I thought, oh, wow. They must have been impressed with me during the, um, the interview process that they're offering more than they originally had mentioned. This is great. Start my job. I go about my way several months down the road. I'm speaking to my manager and she said something about how I was just so impressed the way you negotiated for more money. Oh, and I said, oh, I did not negotiate for more money. And she said, what do you mean? Yes, Kathy said that you would only accept the job if we offered it to you at x plus 3000. And I had not said that. But this, wow. Kathy, I know, right? Kathy saw me as a, you know, 29-year-old woman switching careers and taking a risk and, um, went to bat for me without me even knowing. So be Kathy when you can be Kathy.

AZ: Yeah, that's so great. That's a great story. Um, and really, you know, talks about like building your board and finding support where you can, and sometimes it, it comes as a surprise and you didn't know, you didn't know where you were gonna get support from. Um, so let's talk about your session a little bit with your learning objectives. They included the actions of, recognize, identify, and apply and featured a skill building exercise. What do you hope that participants took away from this exercise? And maybe now since the sessions already happened, what, what kind of feedback have you already received?

RA: I hope participants left the session with a renewed sense of we are all in this together. So just as a background, the exercise that we did is that we did an affirmations exercise where folks were sitting around the room, each person had an index card to write down a self-doubt. And then they put that index paper down and they hand it to the next person. And the next person then writes an affirmation, responding to that self-doubt area. And then basically the idea was to go around the table and each person on the table will write a response for you. And so when you come back with the index card. You have all of these affirmations that relate to the self-doubt area that you put, and I think our hope there is that each person will be able to recognize their own value, recognize that despite the self-doubts that they have, they are seen. They are heard, they have so much to contribute. To the organization that they're in, as well as the larger community. We also conducted a survey, a pre-survey, and we will keep that survey open, to understand what people are going through. And one of the things that we put in the survey was just identifying microaggressions. And so we hope that through that survey that people will be able to identify. Some of the things that might be microaggressions that they didn't even realize, but also, again, going back to how can we collectively support each other through this process? We did get some feedback.

AZ: Do you wanna talk about that?

MD: Yeah, we got, I mean, I'm not exaggerated when I say that. We had people come and talk to us later and we all had tears in our eyes. I mean, it was really beautiful feedback and the general gist of it was. Wow. I, I'm not alone. Um mm-hmm. And while I have all this self-doubt, self-doubt, just knowing that I'm not the only person who has it, makes me feel so much better. You know, I shared in one of my, I have a couple of vulnerabilities I shared in, in the group, and one of them was that, um, I'm always worried I'm not doing enough. I'm worried that I'm not responding enough. I'm worried I'm not quick enough, I'm worried I'm not contributing enough to projects. I just always worry that I'm, I'm not enough. And while we didn't, I didn't get a chance to participate, hearing what other people were saying. And somebody said, you know, I am enough. Like that, that was the, their statement. I am enough. And I think there was such great camaraderie in the room around, um, recognizing, seeing your doubts in other people too, and understanding that. While we might both share this doubt, basically if you look around, like we're not all crazy, right? Like if we're all thinking this, we can't all be off our rockers. There's something here, there's something to this, and the affirmations and really strangers. Mm-hmm. The majority of people there, I don't think knew the people they were sitting next to and there were. We needed tissues in the room. Yes. Yes. I mean, there really was real emotion in people. And somebody said, and if you're the, if you're listening to this and you're the person who said it, I loved it. You said, I'm gonna frame these affirmations and hang them in my office. 'cause they are that meaningful to me. And these are words of strangers. And like, can't we all just be kinder to ourselves that we need a stranger to tell us how wonderful we are? But if that's what it takes, I'm, I'm really glad, I think we've achieved our objective if that's what, what we people walk away from today with.

AZ: Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I agree. It was a, it was a great exercise. I, I participated in the session, as you know, and my table had just, you could see that some people were just very visibly moved. Um, and I ended up passing around a packet of tissues for people at the table as they started to read and reflect what others who they did not know before the session were saying to them not knowing who had even written the statement. Of their, um, their fear, their insecurity, and it was just really meaningful to see how that brought up conversation. And we all talked at our table about things and shared, uh, just little tidbits of sayings that we'd heard and, and things that we thought might encourage someone else. And it just really brought out a very authentic experience of just being human together and just realizing that, you know, we are at a professional conference, but also we have so much more to us, um, than what we might have on our resume, and I think it was really meaningful.

RA: I agree with that. I would just add that to put some of these learnings to action, just taking small steps and maybe identify one person peer, a colleague, that you could reach out to for advice to be potentially build your bench, to start building your bench. Or it could be as simple as claiming credit for the idea that you have in your next meeting and making sure that it's heard or seeking feedback from a mentor, like I said, for an area of growth. And I think the change that we all need requires this consistent, um, intentional step. And I think it requires all of us, it, I think it requires a network to remind ourselves of our value.

AZ: Well, Maura and Ruth, it's been so great talking to you today. Thank you for joining me in today's discussion. I, I think that we could continue talking for a while. It's been so fun, and I think that we could just continue, but I want to be respectful of your time and give back to the sessions. Um, so as we wrap up, how can session participants continue to chart their paths to success beyond your session?

MD: I, um, before I answer your question, I do wanna recognize there was not just Ruth and I in the session, our colleagues Putin Cap and an Annette Wind were instrumental in this work that we did and the four of us just had a genuinely fun time planning last year and this year, and we've become friends and it's really lovely. And this does lead me into then answering your question, which is, um, sometimes say yes. You know, earlier I said say no. Like sometimes say yes. When Puna approached me, I, I don't remember what I was doing at the moment, but I was like, um, I, I don't know how much I can contribute, but sure, okay, I'll do it. And never have never looked back. And so if you, um, have, let's say if you're listening to this and you've never attended an alliance meeting. Come attend. You are going just at lunch today. I ended up sitting by myself and I was okay with that, but also I knew that I could look around this lunch table and be like, Hey, I'm Maura. How are you? And the people you're sitting there with will be happy to talk to you. So come to an alliance meeting. Put yourself out there if you're able, if you're willing, go to the events, go to the poster hall reception. Do the things. You will make connections. Not every connection's going to be the love connection, but you will definitely make connections and you'll meet people and over the years you will build this. So I'd say show up, um, for yourself. And then also show up for others. Make the effort if you see an opportunity to be a mentor or to be a Kathy and to reach out and help somebody else advance their career, whether it be through the alliance or in your own organization or what other, other professional associations and affiliations you have. I really encourage you to do it. Be vulnerable and be brave, I think are the two biggest pieces of advice I could give anybody.

RA: I wanna say thank you to the Alliance for having us and having this conversation because I think this is one extension of our session for women to have a resource to listen into if they miss the session. I would encourage participants to build their ecosystem through formal and informal mentoring sessions. We did collect lists from this year's session, and we hope to generate some kind of listserv where folks can. Support each other through that network. And we're hoping to be back at the Alliance next year, so putting a plug in for that. But, we hope to continue doing more of this work where we can continue to support each other. And so I would just say, attend those opportunities and, seek out mentorship opportunities as well.

AZ: Yeah. And I, I was also gonna mention that, so I'm glad that you brought that up. I went to your session last year. I went to the session this year and both were really meaningful and I got so much out of it. And when you mentioned that you had hoped to submit for 2026, I was very excited. And several people at my table also, um, said that they looked forward and they would definitely want to be there because it, it meant a lot to them. And so thank you for doing work that's really important and really, um. You know, has an impact on people. [00:39:00] And I also wanna say I was, I was pleasantly surprised to see, um. Someone who identifies as, as male in the room and, um, came as an ally. And so I don't know what the audience is gonna be for this podcast, but I do wanna say that I'm glad that it is also open to others who want to learn how to, um, you know, talk in a more respectful way and be supportive to others with them.

Maura Davis: Yeah, I, I appreciate that point. And I, I think while we speak about this as women in the field. Some of the themes are universal. Um, and I think there's certainly opportunity in the conversations we're having for all genders. We focused on women, both, um, to talk about the experiences that we've had and to help us create a, a safe environment. But that's not to say that the topics we are addressing do not cross gender. And I, I agree. It was really nice to see, um, the ally in the room today, but for those who are listening and this advice certainly applies to everybody. Mm-hmm. And, um, I really do hope we have the opportunity to present again at 26.

AZ: Well, you have my vote. Um, well as a final, as a final comment, do you have any of your favorite resources that you recommend for continued learning and practice?

RA: I suppose just talking off the top of my head, I would say there's a lot of resources on LinkedIn learning, so you can always, when you talk about leadership, when you talk about navigating organizations, there's a lot of free information out there. I think there are some, the Harvard Business Review puts out a lot of articles. Related to leadership, related to the workplace that can be accessible in terms of books, I really like Sharyl Sandberg. I think the book is called "Lean In". Yeah. Um, I think that's a great start. Brene Brown has done a lot of research and work around vulnerability and showing up in spaces authentically.

MD:  I would, again, encourage you to, to get involved. Um, so again, I come from Medical Specialty Society, so a lot of my network has been through the Alliance, but also through, um, CMSS and through work, volunteer work I've done at the American Board of Internal Medicine and other places. So it's also about building, being, putting yourself out there, saying yes sometimes leaning into to those opportunities.

RA: Some books to consider in addition to the ones that I said were a book by Stacey Abrams, "Lead from the Outside". Wonderful book to look at as well as "Lead to Win" by Carla Harris. Those are all really great resources.

AZ: Thanks for your suggestions and resources and again for your participation today. We really appreciate it. Um, so thanks for joining us on the Alliance Podcast. Until next time.

RA: Thank you so much for having us.

MD: Yes, ditto. Thank you.